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♪♪ [theme music] ♪♪ >>>sheryl mccarthy: helloi'm sheryl mccarthy of the city university ofnew york. welcome to one to one. i'm delighted to welcomeauthor sheila weller to the program, in her newbook she chronicles the lives and careers of threeof the best known names in t.v. news diane sawyer, katiecouric and christiane amanpour. coming into a field thatwas totally dominated by men, void by the rising tideof the women's movement
but even more so by their ownrelentless drive and hard work. they scaled the heightsof the television news business. how did they get there,what did they find there and how did theychange. t.v. news. we get the inside storiesin weller's new book, "the news sorority" whichhas just been published by penguin press. welcome. >>>sheila weller: thank yousheryl, nice to be here. >>>sheryl mccarthy: youknow in your previous book
"girls like us" youfocus on three top women songwriters and singers. is that what whetted yourappetite to explore the lives of thesethree newswomen? >>>sheila weller: well yes,i mean it's actually, there are a lot of reasons todo a three person biography and i kind of enjoythat. the first book was about women who worked with theirhearts and their instincts. this is about women who workedwith their heads and their
judgment. so i thought it wasinteresting to make a switch and show differentsides of women who were all girls in one america,that expected one thing of women and pushed theenvelope to change that world, change america sothat women had you know very differentopportunities, very different careerpaths and life paths. >>>sheryl mccarthy: whythese three in particular? >>>sheila weller: well i thinkthey kind of chose themselves.
when i thought abouticonic successful women who have been with usthrough all our tragedies, who were in ourliving rooms, our bedrooms, our kitchens explaining whathappened in the world, in america, diane andkatie immediately popped out. they've been onnumerous forums, they're totallybranded, trusted, hardworking. and christiane held up theinternational wing of it, there has not been amore prolific or policy
affecting foreign correspondentsince world war two. >>>sheryl mccarthy: so diane, katie and christiane they camefrom different backgrounds. >>>sheila weller:very different, yes. >>>sheryl mccarthy: wasthere something that they had in common, do youthink that attracted them to television news? >>>sheila weller: well youdo think okay what do they have in common,what's different.
yes their backgroundswere very different. these are women whoultimately and this came to me as i did my researchand you know months and months and years went by,they woke up almost every morning oftheir lives saying, i'm not going totake no for an answer. almost never, i've donea lot of work on women, written about a lot ofwomen i've almost never encountered suchself-confidence and such
determination and theywere in love with work, which i think is great,i mean they were in love with work as in lovewith anything else. >>>sheryl mccarthy: how wouldyou describe, now diane came in before, she was older, shecame in before the other two. how would you describe thestatus of women in television, in the news television newsbusiness when they entered it? >>>sheila weller: when theyentered it. well diane came in when there was something,either title ix or title vii,
there was a title on itand it's very mysterious which one it was, at anyrate the network bosses were told you've gotto hire women now, you know this is early feminism,very active, active feminism and the newsrooms havebeen totally, totally male. so there was a push to hirewomen and she came in at that time, she was also disadvantagedby the fact that she'd worked for nixon for eight yearsbut that's another story. so she came in when thedoor was just opening a
little bit forcertain women, certain women by dintof their talent and determination topush themselves. and so it was a goodtime for her to enter. katie got a little more of itlater but she was disadvantaged by the fact that peoplethought she was perky, people thought she was lightweight. imean katie has always. >>>sheryl mccarthy:she looked very young. >>>sheila weller: young andperky, she didn't have that long
faced serious you know, shehad an incredibly distinct personality. christiane wasdisadvantaged by the fact that she was foreign, thatshe wasn't classically blonde and beautiful, thatshe had a foreign accent, that she had anunpronounceable name. so all of them came inwhen it was certainly much better than it had been before,which was you know very bad. >>>sheryl mccarthy:but it wasn't great. >>>sheila weller: but itwasn't great but they each
had hurdles to overcome. >>>sheryl mccarthy: nowkatie and christiane both sort of cut their teeth atc.n.n., this sort of ragtag new cable t.v., i guess you call ita station and so was c.n.n., would you say it was cnn thatreally incubated those two? >>>sheila weller: well a friendof christie and said never in a million paralleluniverses would she have become, had the opportunities that shehad at any other network. c.n.n. at the verybeginning with ted turner,
reese schonfeld was, it wasnon-unionized, they were always losing their money, they werein a building that didn't even have bathrooms, therewas a wrestling rink upstairs they had been adrug rehab center. every funny story, imean the early c.n.n. people you know out did themselvestelling me funny stories about how completely unlikelythis crazy network was. so they hired everybody. therewas nobody they didn't hire, you wanted to work in t.v. comeon in you've got an office.
so they made opportunities, theyhired more women than anybody, they hired more couples,they hired minorities, they just hired peoplethat the other networks were too snooty andhidebound to hire. so you've got alot of talent there. >>>sheryl mccarthy:but even so katie and christiane had to pushreally hard to get on the air. >>>sheila weller:they did absolutely, for different reasons and infact for opposite reasons.
christiane wasconsidered too serious, you know again she didn't havethat blonde beauty queen look. and katie was consideredtoo peppy and lightweight. however some people, thereare some astute people there saw howtalented they both were, that they bothwere totally true to themselves, which is a major part ofcoming through the screen. >>>sheryl mccarthy: howwould you describe their individual working styles?
>>>sheila weller:the two of them, or all three? >>>sheryl mccarthy: all three. >>>sheila weller: okay,diane biggest workaholic in the world, i don'tthink people know that. >>>sheryl mccarthy: i'm sorry. >>>sheila weller: biggestworkaholic in the western world and i sosalute that, as somebody who's also aneurotic workaholic who gets up in themiddle of the night,
i so salute that but ithink people don't know that because they thinkof her as kind of creamy, genteel, gracious, calm, maybeprivileged. there's a whole aura about her that is completelycontradicted by the fact that she is an obsessed worker,a perfectionist. >>>sheryl mccarthy: wellshe's sort of what to the women in networktelevision what gloria steinem was to thewomen's movement. >>>sheila weller: yeah, in manyways including the fact that the
top, very discerning top mediaguys all had a crush on her. you know but dianeincredible perfectionist, incredible, incredibleworkaholic, also very, very good at what one might call officepolitics at, charming as the day is long, the most charming womanever, very good at indirect communication, getting thingsdone without, maybe without herfingerprints there's you know. >>>sheryl mccarthy:passive aggressive maybe? >>>sheila weller: no,not passive aggressive,
people use the term sheplay three dimensional chess likenobody's business. she plays three dimensionalchess while you're sleeping. good and some people think notso good, you know you've got to do that if you're in this field,you just have to, you know. i mean you can't succeedwithout that. so that's diane. katie, incredibleambition, somebody said the most ambitious person i've evermet you know male or female, pushed through you know doors,i think feels empowered by the
fact that people underestimateher, has learned to use that as a tool, you think i'm just alittle light weight, wait let me showyou, yes. and that comes throughin an attitude that yes, she's been considered thegirl next door but there's a snarkiness and an edginessto it, she will come out with zingers. i mean she's got anincredible personality, she hates pretension, shegets right to the core of an issue and very, just aunique personality that
sometimes worksterrifically as it did at today, nobody did thatshow the way katie did. then she went to c.b.s. evening news wherethey had dan rather, walter cronkite, youknow men that people genuflected over andhere was a morning, you know, woman coming inwith fashionable clothes who wanted to change theformat and jazz it up a little. so she she's notafraid of breaking rules.
>>>sheryl mccarthy:and then christiane? >>>sheila weller:christiane is a passionate advocate for justice andfor shining the spotlight on stories in the world incountries that americans haven't heard ofbefore she got there. >>>sheryl mccarthy: shedid that more than anybody else. >>>sheila weller:more than anybody else, she went to bosnia whenold war dog male reporters were afraid to go and weretold by their wives and their
mothers don't go and it's toodangerous. she went in there, she and her colleagues therewere always dodging sniper fire, their friends werekilled and wounded. day after day after day itwas this story that we in america had no dog inthe race with you know, but she keptsaying stay here, stay here, stay here thisis a genocide people have to know about it andshe put it on the map, she balled up bill clintonwhen she was not well
known, on live t.v., hewas taking a back and then she did the samething in many, many conflict zonesall over the world. interestingly, ironicallywhen she came back to new york having done that forfifteen years and won a fairly modest anchor,prestige anchor post at c.n.n., she didn't get it. they said you have skills,your skills are in the field, fareed zakaria isbetter at analysis and
they gave it tohim instead of her. an example of sort ofsexism that exists today, she said welli'm the most, you know she gotannoyed at that, she said i'm thebest known foreign correspondent in the world andvery high up people at c.n.n. thought that wasconceited and arrogant, if a guy had said that it wouldnot be the same reaction. >>>sheryl mccarthy:because peter jennings and
dan rather had beenoutstanding in the field. >>>sheila weller:yes, peter jennings, exactly and of course cronkiteand murrow, you get to have that, okay you get to have that.on the other hand it, t.v. has becomevery niche, t.v. news. when she got the opportunityto have a big reform at a.b.c. this week, it justhappened to be a national show, a verypolitics driven show. tim russert waskind of the paradigm,
of the kind of personalityyou want there and her personality and herknowledge base wasn't a perfect match there, forsome stories yes but for meat and potatoes nationalpolitical stories not so much. so she didn't last thereand ironically was kind of given her walkingpapers just as she scooped everybody in the worldand got mubarak during the beginning ofthe arab spring. >>>sheryl mccarthy: we're goingto take a short break then i'll
be back with more with sheilaweller author of "the news sorority, diane sawyer, katiecouric and christiane amanpour and the (ongoing, imperfect,complicated) triumph of women in t.v. news". back in a moment. >>>sheryl mccarthy:welcome back to one to one. i'm sheryl mccarthy of the city university of new york and i'm talking withsheila weller the author of "the newssorority, diane sawyer, katie couric and christianeamanpour and the (ongoing,
imperfect, complicated)triumph of women in t.v. news". it's just been publishedby the penguin press. so at some point youhave both katie and diane working on rival morningnetwork morning shows, how fierce was thecompetition between them? >>>sheila weller: well ithas to be fierce because morning is the network's cashcow. katie was absolutely dominant, you know you couldn't,you couldn't touch her. diane was arisk for a.b.c.,
she was not consideredthe perfect morning woman because she was a little whatthey called aspirational, sophisticated, didn't havechildren, wasn't going to go through a pregnancy, they didn'tthink maybe she was that warm and fuzzy. she had a learningcurve but she aced it. so they were two verydistinctly different morning personalities andhad competed for what they call gets, i think weall know that word now. >>>sheryl mccarthy: biginterviews.
>>>sheila weller: big interviewsyes, everybody wants. yeah. people said that katie starteddressing more like diane, you knowboth of them thought, especially katie who'sreally a feminist thought stop talking about ourclothes and our hair, it's ridiculous but theydefinitely had to compete. yeah. >>>sheryl mccarthy: nowkatie was the first woman to be named the soleanchor of a network nighttime newshow on c.b.s.
what was it about her thatmade the executives and they actually sought herout for that position? >>>sheila weller:they absolutely did. >>>sheryl mccarthy: whatwas it that made them a threat at that time? >>>sheila weller: okay,well it was les moonves who is the head of, thel.a. based head of c.b.s. and that was, asthe newsies at c.b.s. made clear to me that wasthe entertainment wing.
he wanted to shake it up,he wanted to youthify it, he wanted itmore informal, more give and take, hewanted a personality that was just less you know stuffyperhaps than what they'd had. so they kind oftalked her into it, she was ready for somethingnew and she likes a challenge but that was and they put alot of money into promoting it. it didn't work, it didn't work,it's a very rigid form, format, twenty two minutes, youcan't be lucy goosey,
you can't be experimentaland so first it was a big success then the knivescame out on her and then she became, they made itmuch more conventional. >>>sheryl mccarthy: andthe fact that they paid her so much money youknow became an issue too. >>>sheila weller:became an issue, there were issues bothwith the viewership and c.b.s. says 6:30pm people are themost conservative middle american oldest, malestof the three networks.
so they didn't particularlywant a katie and there was, there were problems withinthe network itself. c.b.s. has people who werethere for a long time, there were some peoplethat were getting ten dollars an hour todo hard research. she was gettingfifteen million a year. dan rather had recently,she was making twice what he was making, she was comingin from a different network, although shehad been a pentagon
correspondent and donevery hard news interviews with the likes ofyasser arafat and all the presidents and ahmadinejad, she was still tagged with the morning thing. so the people within c.b.s.had a problem with her. >>>sheryl mccarthy:right, now diane got the nighttime anchorslot at a.b.c. later. was she more successfulat it then katie was? >>>sheila weller: she was, bythe way first of all she wanted
to get it first and peoplethought she should have. there's a piece inmy book about that, it's not well known shekind of made a bid for it when she found it,somebody knew about that, she quickly withdrew it. but she did benefit fromthe problems that katie had. also diane has adifferent personality, she wouldn't gobragging about her money, she has an aurathat is less, you know,
easily it goes better with whatwas expected for the nightly news and she haddone that kind of thing before. so she went inmore smoothly, they didn't over promoteher as they had katie. >>>sheryl mccarthy: andkatie lasted how long and how long did diane? >>>sheila weller: katie lastedfrom, god, a good five years. yeah you know she stayedin there and fought to stay and of course toward theend she really triumphed,
she pulled it outwith her sarah palin interview, it effected the election. >>>sheryl mccarthy: onething that impressed me was that while katieand diane followed male anchors who had heldtheir jobs for years, their terms were fairly short. is it because they came in, because the public hada thing against female anchors or was it becausethey came in when the
network news wasstarting to decline, why do you thinkthe difference? >>>sheila weller: there issomething that, at the at the end of katie's, for the last twoyears of katie's tenure there, there was a line at c.b.s., a little motto that peoplewere even saying out loud, it wasn't even behindclosed doors you could put any white man in chair, inthat chair and do better than katie and thatbecame the thing,
well let's get a white manin the chair, okay it'll be scott pelley. and people said hewasn't necessarily better than katie but he was,that he looked right, he looked like what theaudience wanted for that. diane did very well andshe made innovations that were viewer friendly, the madein america, this and that, did very well but shenever could beat brian williams. then she started tobeat brian williams and everyone got excited but whenyou look at the nielsen's
she beat brian williams onthose evenings that david moore. >>>sheryl mccarthy:was sitting in for her. >>>sheila weller: and sohe got it and they wanted that, they wanted a guy. >>>sheryl mccarthy: onegets a real sense from your book of theextreme politics, the extreme volatility,the constantly shifting sands that are an integralpart of network t.v. news. and yet the katie and dianesurvived for pretty long time.
so they had something. >>>sheila weller:it's a tough world. there were issues whenadvance copies of this book came out and thereare passages in the book that show thatthese women, they didn't get to the topby being mother teresa. i mean you had touse office politics, you had to be aperfectionist and there were some people whodidn't like some of the
things you did or grumbledand that i think happens in every office in apressured situation. >>>sheryl mccarthy: waschristiane as good at politics or was it justyou know the force of her personality, theforce of her reporting. >>>sheila weller: yeah,she was in a different forum, she was overseas. first of allshe was good at it, i mean she told c.n.n. you're putting me onduring this time slot, not another, i'm going for twelveminutes not six,
in atlanta they go, oh, oh,oh, okay. so she was, she wasbossy, she definitely was. when you're in thefield you know in foreign countries and youknow in asia and africa, you're not going into an officeevery day with big executives. >>>sheryl mccarthy:with her long knives. >>>sheila weller: yeahwith her long knives. so she, she had a forumthat was easier to do that in. >>>sheryl mccarthy: it wasinteresting that she was
able to maintain her workas a foreign correspondent and you know jetting offto these for away places and underdangerous conditions, even after shemarried and had a child. >>>sheila weller: yes,yeah i'm glad you said that. of course there are somepeople that say why bring that up about a woman theydon't bring that up about a man, but it was, it waschallenging and she later came to admit it, at thevery beginning she said
well i'll just putkevlar diapers on my baby. that was obviously a grossexaggeration but i think she felt and people saidshe felt she had to do it because otherwise they'dsay oh she's a mommy now, she's out of the picture. itwas, it was challenging, it was a constant, for theyears that she was doing that it was a constantinternal battle for her. she was incrediblehands on mother, motherhood totally changedher, she didn't expect it to.
you know it changes themost women that don't think about ituntil they get there. so it was, it was a constant push-pull oftwo things she loved. and finally ultimatelyshe came back to new york because she couldn'tcontinue to do it at that pace. i think men feel the same,i think men feel the same way, they just get away withit, they get away with it. >>>sheryl mccarthy: what arethe three subjects doing now? >>>sheila weller:christiane has been in
london for about a yearand a half and she does have an internationalshow on c.n.n., it's a little harder tofind than it used to be. she's not running around,thank god and getting in you know danger withthe isil situation. katie is working withmarissa mayer at yahoo, i think they'll dogreat things together, they're very similar andshe's doing documentaries on issues like obesityin america and sexual violence.
and diane will continueher childhood poverty specials and she willget the great juicy newsmagazine speeches that sheand barbara used to rival over. i expect that the georgeand amal clooney will be hers and you know whoeveris the republican nominee will be hers, so shewill keep herself busy. >>>sheryl mccarthy: youfocus on three white women in network do you thinkor suspect that black and asian women have had aneven more difficult road?
>>>sheila weller: right,it's interesting they're the first woman thatthe guys at c.b.s. in the early seventy's,dick salant, etc, the firstwoman that they wanted, thought would be therising star and could be a female anchor was anafrican-american woman, i'm forgettingher name now, she died, tragically she died in a planecrash. but they adored her. i think it is harder andcarole simpson makes that point.
carole simpson is aheroine in the book, she started a you knowan active push to get, to get thedoors open again, when they had tobe opened again. and her group tookover the microphone at a barbara waltersevening, you know. so yes i think it'sdefinitely harder but i think you know strides arebeing made everywhere and we have the news comingin from all angles now,
we have, you knowtwitter gives us the news, cable has forthe longest time, t.m.z. who knew, we got the rayrice story through t.m.z.. so i think you knowthe forums are changing, it's less hidebound than it was. >>>sheryl mccarthy: we'vegot about a minute and a half for you to tell mewhat impact you feel these three women had ontelevision news. >>>sheila weller: ithink they humanized it,
i know that sounds alittle clichã© but i think that they were ableto get from people, from the people theyinterviewed whether it was ahmadinejad ormel gibson or rhianna, they were able to get,they were able to ask questions that menwouldn't think of asking or the columbine people ormatthew shepard's parents. i just think we got to the humancore of the stories better. better through them, moreeasily through them and i
don't know and i thinkeven though they're not in the air as much as they usedto be at all, i think the twenty and thirty years thatthey were incredibly impactful. >>>sheryl mccarthy: wereyou drawn to one of the more than others? >>>sheila weller: i thinkthey're all terrific, they're also different. people said whowould you like to hang out with, all of them fordifferent reasons. >>>sheryl mccarthy: okay,we're out of time.
i want to thank sheilaweller for joining me. "the news sorority, dianesawyer, katie couric and christiane amanpour and the(ongoing, imperfect, complicated) triumphof women in t.v. news" has just beenpublished by the penguin press. for the city university ofnew york and one to one, i'm sheryl mccarthy. >>>sheryl mccarthy: ifthere are any people you'd like to hear from ortopics you'd like us to
explore pleaselet us know. you can write to me atcuny tv 365 fifth avenue new york, new york 10016,or you can go to the website at cuny.tv andclick on contact us. i look forward tohearing from you.
